You've got lots of people raving over WotY, so you know there's interest. Why not start with that, see how it works, and then expand to other training programs? ADF does have an 'as-needed' fund, this is the sort of project that I believe should be supported - why not apply for a grant of sorts?

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*nods* I'm less enthusiastic about asking ADF for cash than I am asking individuals for cash. Have the users of the program support it, not the organization when training isn't required, anyway.

Of course, ADF makes a big deal about the fact that our training is free, so maybe that's what bugs me most about throwing any money at all at it. . .

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ADF's training is still free. What you are providing is an additional program.

The public education system is free. Additional tutoring usually costs money.

On the other hand, I feel the opposite of what you do, apparently: I'd rather ask the org for support and provide the tutoring for free to the users. But, ya know, I'm a bleeding heart liberal.

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*nods* I think (see my response to rfunk) that I can do it with no increase in cost to me, so the point is pretty moot, I hope. Not that I'd be unhappy with a handout, mind :)

I'm always uncomfortable about creating new methods of training. I'm afraid they'll meet with resistance, or I'll majorly flub them up. I can see I've already pissed some people off. . . Kinda amusing :)

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Compared with other hosting providers, Draknet's disk space offering is conspicuously small.

Of course, I haven't found a replacement I'm happy with yet.

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*nods* It is small, but I haven't really needed to worry about an increase until now (I figure I'm a good two years away if I keep doing what I'm doing). Besides, I've been reading through their site, and there are some other options. The Jaz account (what I currently have) is now introduced with about five times as much space as I currently have, so honestly, I don't think squeezing more space out of Drak.net will be difficult, should I choose to go that route. But I'm looking at and thinking about what I want my page to be, and that's really key.

So I think, after further research, that I could do it on the same price, actually. . . But I need to request an increase in space, I'm guessing. And I don't see any need to do that until I decide to go forward with this little project (no need to waste drak.net's money while I waste the space).

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Ohhhh... there are many more options then that ;) I'm looking into them for my pages as well. *shrug* if you need ideas or maybe some assistance drop me an email.

As for size & rent, you can offset both via non-obtrusive advertising...

your host offers some free things for non-profit ventures & for others...though they are likely riddled with spamvertisments.

Google's single line text ads on the bottom of a few pages could help a bit, and they are not annoying to me (unlike banners).

I see you already have a donation button via paypal...but you may wish to spread it around a bit...or maybe add a plea to it ;) just don't be too begging. That's unbecoming... either way on this though, maybe stating that anything above the costs to run the site will go to the ADF?

My host offers a special button (like the paypal button) that goes directly to hosting. Some people feel better paying for the site rather then just you *shrug*

You could do a massive upgrade, add on a reseller account & have the other sites you host pay for yours...though, there is some risk to this, as well as the starter costs...

Maybe offer a 'members only' section...then charge a minor fee to access it? Works for some places...and many are willing to fork over doe if they get something out of it AND if it helps a good cause *shrug*

__________________


Cpanel is pretty easy to use...especially if it has Fantastico or some other script installer. Making the backend rather easy... but then, you likely have some knowledge of this?

_________________

BLOG?

Hehe... Wordpress is nice (wordpress.org I think), and offers syndication. It's open source & free...they will even install it for you if you'd like.

With the syndication feature you can at least convert your LJ to a syndicated account. I dunno about myspace or that faceplace, as I've never used them...

___________________

the various WIKI programs out there are all riddled with hackable holes...so unless ya know how to keep an eye out for such things, it's wise to make constant backups ;)

___________________

I've no clue what else to say...but if you'd like to read more just ask and I'm sure I can ramble on another 15 pages..

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Well, my donation page has some of that:

http://www.chronarchy.com/donate.html

I am running through cpanel and fantastico. It's kinda fun :)

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I've actually not gotten a chance to play with the script installer. All the stuff I've done has created itself on it's own...so in a way I've been lucky :D

And to be clear on the wordpress thing... it's something you can upload to your site & blog yourself... or even offer others to blog (which actually may be a great idea for the ADF itself... hosting member blogs & all *shrug*
Q

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And I could also create something like that for the various GSP courses, or clergy training. And honestly, I'm a little excited.

It makes me A LOT excited, and dang, I would pay for it!

OR, you could do the same thing on the ADF site (again, for payment). ;)

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I sent you a login to try it out, so let me know what you think. I'm really interested in seeing how this format works out, because I'm really unsure of it. It's got a lot of potential, and I think it can go a long way.

But, again, I'm not set on this. It seems like it'd be an interesting experiment, and I really, honestly think that there are people who can get a lot out of it.

I might run a test-group like I did with the WotY: their input was invaluable in figuring out that it actually did work. One never knows until they've tried.

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I don't like the idea of an online course on your webpage. For starters, we should be emphasizing the mentorship and help available from real-life real-time ADF members, not introducing yet another impersonal medium. People should talk to the clergy, fellow DPers, people who've finished their DP already. This encourages fellowship and shared perspectives a lot more than some cheesy web course would. And don't tell me you're going to police and mentor everybody who uses it, either -- you do not have the time.

I could see where quizzes and due dates would be fun, but due dates do not really work that well. We've seen that already through everyone that's done. Moreover, the WOTY already suggests you should do one assignment per week, meaning that anyone who starts it ALREADY has a calendar of duedates they can customize much more efficiently. As for quizzes, quizzes yield grades and then you open a whole nother can of worms, and I don't mean cool worms like the kind I save, I mean big nasty tentacle worms with names like Ego and Discouragement.

*shrugs* It'd be nice to provide another learning tool, but your website already does. And to be honest, anything to the extent of a course belongs on ADF's website, not your personal page.

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Is the online course really a bad thing? It would just provide one more variety of possible ways to learn.

There is enough variety amongst those that want to learn. Just look at the DP through the Wheel of the Year. Same (well similar) content as the basic instruction, but in its implementation many people think it astounding, while others dread even that level of structure.

But yes, the whole community managing websites is probably not a great road to go down, they suck time, energy, and money if it becomes successful.

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I think considering the amount of space it would take up, yeah, it is a bad thing.

I also don't think that the whole community needs to manage it, but rather that it doesn't really belong on a personal website. If it's an ADF course, it should be on ADF's mainpages. Mike can save the Mike Show for his webpage, where it would probably be more appropriate to have his own sort of made-up courses like... derno, ones on whatever he thinks is cool.

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*nods* What I'm playing with right now is the ability to offer the WotY in a more interactive form, which was its original intent. When I wrote the WotY, it was designed to be a set of emails sent out to each Dedicant that someone was mentoring. It can still be used for that.

What I can do with this is move the couple of remaining students (or new students who come in at a later time and want the same one-on-one connection I gave singingwren, _crow365__, and wishmaiden) over to a system like this. If it works out well on a small scale, then I can look at asking ADF if they want the course in its entirety, and maybe work on some other versions for things like the GSP as well.

The key, of course, is to keep seeking new ways for people to learn.

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I sent you a login to what I'm currently messing around with.

Try it.

And remember, the WotY was made for people who want stricter schedules, more structured training, and a deeper content level.

And a quiz is a teaching tool, not a punishment or a judgment.

As for it belonging on ADF's site, well, I'd still end up proctoring the whole thing: Anthony has less time than I do, and it would end up as a timesink for two of us there (as we'd be the only people working on it, I can bet, and I'm not going to make him do it).

I'd also point out that I'm not the only person thinking about running ADF training on a personal site (or actually doing it).

Fact is, if it doesn't do most of the work for me, then it's a waste of time. So I'm playing with it to figure it out. Though I'm glad you know what my time commitments are better than I do.

Interestingly, I can make other people teachers, and give them access to the courses. Which means that I don't have to be the only person working on it.

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Try what? I didn't understand I was supposed to do other than look at the assignments.

I realize that it was meant to be stricter, but it already IS stricter. Can you make the calendar flexible so that due dates for the person change according to when they start it? That'd save people a lot of effort in figuring it out a calendar if they wish to be that selective, maybe.

As for quizzes, yes, you'd think that, but if YOU or others get to see the grades that changes things. Assigning letter grades for performance of this nature seems not only unnecessary but also unwelcome. These things are lot more abstract than math assignments. Again, if you can make quizzes that just let you retake them a lot to review and don't log scores, that would be cooler, but it's new so I don't know what you can do.

Finally, as for your time committments, I apologize for believing your claims of having too much on your plate already and looking for a second job.

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You are not required to believe a word I say.

Sorry I sought your opinion on this. I'll look elsewhere for someone who is willing to ask questions rather than state conclusions.

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Yikes, MJD! Calm down! Since when was it a sin to disagree with your ideas? You said you were considering doing the Moodle thing and seemed to want feedback, so I gave it to you. I felt it was not a good idea and sought to explain why, all the while trying to inject thoughts on what MIGHT work better if you could do that.

You have a lot of nerve criticizing me for "stating conclusions" (aka sharing opinions) instead of asking questions when you clearly seem to think you have all the answers already! Yeesh.

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I am calm. What are you?

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Buggered!

...

Okay, I'm actually just sleepy. But I don't see why you are reacting with such attitude to me...? Aren't you always looking for feedback on this type of stuff and trying to hear the voices of the ADF members? Maybe you just weren't expecting disagreement to this idea, but I think I figured out the gyst of what bothered me and sent it to you in email instead. No point in rambling that here.

This idea touched a nerve -- and I don't think I'm the only one who has it.

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I think the idea is good in theory, but in practice I suspect that the extra work involved in using the Moodle site will actually be more of a hindrance than a help to students.

As you say, singingwren, WotY already provides a pretty good structure. Really, all that remains is for students to follow it and do the work. I'm not sure that additional web tools will really help make that happen; either the student makes the time to follow the program, or s/he doesn't. I don't see that having assignments and web calendars will make that more likely.

But, I'm all for testing it out and being proven wrong, too. I'm just (believe it or not) cautious about over-techifying things. But I also have my own styles for learning, so I may be missing a certain subset of students that could benefit from even more DP structure, this time via additional tech tools.

So I'd say go for it, test it out. Though, relevant to the question of whether to pony up the additional cash to test out moodle, is there a simpler, smaller system you could use to test the concept, first - a sort of "poor man's moodle"?

And I certainly hope you guys have patched up any silliness from this exchange by now - you two are both among the most nice and also dedicated to ADF folks I know.

You're really on the "same team" here, both trying to help the Dedicants learn the best they can, it's just there's a little disagreement on the exact approach.

And hey, if all that nice-sounding mumbo-jumbo doesn't work for ya', you can team up and flame me, if that'll get you back in each others' good graces ;)

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Oh, and I should say, if disk space alone is stopping you, you could also set up a test server on archives.adf.org - I think we still have plenty of space there.

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Unfortunately I received this comment a little too late; had I known that Mike and I were both on the same team, I wouldn't have gone out and firebombed his house to the ground!

*shakes head* Ah well, you live and learn, right? ;)

On a slight tangent, a lot of my issue with this system is that it runs the risk of making ADf TOO standardized/technical/impersonal, especially if we do 'mass mentoring' or use the quiz and grade features. I'm actually a little (okay, a LOT) skittish about too much centralization; I guess I've got an anarchist streak there.

Oh, and on a WAY bigger tangent, I just found out that I was born at 6:29 am. :)

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it runs the risk of making ADf TOO standardized/technical/impersonal

Hm, I think you may be on to something there. Periodically I have to remind myself (and sometimes others) that "ADF is not the lists" - or LJ, whatever.

I think the one-on-one mentorship connections are really what helps, just like meeting people face to face at festivals is better than 1000 e-mails.

However, I think we still have more mentor requests than students, so while I agree there's definitely a risk of making it too technical and impersonal (which is a better way of what I was saying when I said over-structured, I think), I think it's worth trying out with a focus group.

As I said, I'd love to be proven wrong - but that can only really happen if the focus group actually says it works.

I'm not sure, but I think one of your concerns might be that this would be implemented as an official ADF system when, in fact, I don't think Mike meant to do that unless the test went well.

And even then, I'd think the system would be optional, not an integral part of the DP. (And even the WotY is optional of course).

Oh, and on a WAY bigger tangent, I just found out that I was born at 6:29 am. :)

Great! If you remind me before Wellspring I'll try to do your chart and bring it with me, or if either of us forget, I'll just do it on my Palm Pilot there :)

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And even then, I'd think the system would be optional, not an integral part of the DP. (And even the WotY is optional of course).

*nods*

The interesting thing is that a number of people despise the WotY (some with more passion than singingwren does this weird moodle idea I got) because *they* learn best without the structure, and they see the WotY, even as vague and socratic as it is, as "feeding them the answers" or "making it too easy."

Their concern is well-placed: they want everyone to get the best experience out of the DP possible, and they saw/see how they did it as the best way to learn it.

The problem is that not everyone learns like they do. In fact, the best way to teach material to a varied audience (and ADF is nothing if not varied) is to offer as many avenues of learning and as many styles of teaching as possible.

So undirected training (the DP in its original format) must remain available. WotY needs to remain available. Mentorship needs to remain available. The Virtues book needs to remain available. And every one of them needs to stay optional. Each of these methods is vital, and each one approaches training in a different way.

Another thing to remember, too, is that we are also dealing with a wide spectrum of learning abilities. We have a wide population with Asperger's, who seem to learn best when the information is laid out and referenced all in one tight package. We have people who don't have any sort of learning disability but have a time deficiency (after speaking to a working mom three weeks ago, it became apparent that a time deficiency can become worse than a learning disability in terms of what can be learned by various methods: she called online courses "a godsend" and indicated that they were the only way she could get through school).

What it comes down to is that the options have to be available for those who learn in these ways.

But we'll see. I didn't listen to the people attacking WotY because I knew it was needed. I'm not sure that the online stuff is needed, but I have a strong feeling that it would *help*, and that might just be enough for me. Besides, I'm getting a lot more support for the idea than I thought I would.

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And I certainly hope you guys have patched up any silliness from this exchange by now

It's okay: what you see here. . . well, it's how our relationship has always been.

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That's the problem with those Scorpios... they're so intense. They're great to have on your side, but they get pissed off easily and then they brood.

I either love (particular) Scorpios or I hate them, and usually it's the latter, and in general I just want to avoid pissing them off (they tend to have a thing about revenge, a la being a dish best served cold), so I usually try to give them a wide berth :)

That's enough stereotyping for one day, I think!

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*grins*

So, what you're saying, is that it's her fault?

*grins wider*

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No, what I'm saying is I would never *dare* to say it's her fault... she'd kill me in my sleep if I did! ;)

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I use iPowerWeb for The Invisible College.com

http://ipowerweb.com/products/webhosting/index.html

Current offer:

50GB storage, 2500 email addresses, 1GB or so transfer per month, etc starting at about $8.00 a month (pay in advance etc).

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I had a few thoughts on the question of whether you should charge, too.

First, no one will ever value your time as much as you do. So if you're not where you want to be financially, ask yourself what value you put on your time - and chances are others are putting the same or lower value on it, too.

So that's definitely something leaning toward charging.

The only difficulty that could arise is, how much of this work would you see as "clergy" work? Assuming that you don't charge for "clergy" work, if this fit into that category in whole or in part, then that could be a possible argument toward not charging, or not charging much anyway.

This more or less sidesteps the question of whether our clergy, in general, should be charging for their services.

I know it's not uncommon for ministers to charge (what seems to me) a nominal fee for performing a marriage (for example). So I guess there's something to be said for putting some kind of a value on our clergy's time.

But that's really part of a larger discussion, especially since much of the pagan world seems to want things for free or dirt cheap. (Though I'll admit my perception of that could be skewed by the occasional and periodic messages we get to the ADF-Office account asking how dare we charge for membership etc.).

I know Skip charges for his training (not sure if he's still actively doing it), obviously Rob and Gwynne did, and I suspect there are a few others who did or do charge. So there's a bit of precedent there.

But I think it ultimately comes down to putting a value on your time simply because, well, I kind of think you NEED to do that (and by "you" I mean "anyone" needs to).

Of course, I've always been one to argue that ADF shouldn't be afraid to mark up our stuff and actually make a "profit" on things, while others have acted like that's a dirty word or something.

Sorry, but if we want to do great things, we need resources to do it with, and if we keep interpreting "non-profit" as "barely scraping by, barely charging enough to pay our expenses" then guess what, we're not going to get to implement a lot of those ideas, never mind having reserves in case something bad should happen.

But there I go on a tangent again :)

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I personally have no problem charging for weddings (there's time involved in meeting with the couple, getting there, setting up, running the service, and a lot of preparation involved: a good wedding might take a good 60+ hours all told, I understand). I'm not so keen on charging for training that's part of an ADF program, personally. I think that unless we get accredited, there's no point.

And if I paid something on order of what OBOD charges and got what they send out, I would be f'in' pissed, honestly.

I like where we are in charging. I think we need to offer more opportunities for people to donate more, and give them more reasons to donate. In particular, if someone wants to do one of the training programs, then we need to make it worth their money, and encourage donations for them.

Actually, that might be something we could look at: set up a training budget and allow people to donate to that fund. I know qorinda will love a new fund, but really, putting, "Training in the Brewer's Guild is free, but a donation of at least $15 per circle is encouraged to support the organization and pay for administrative and back end work," somewhere on the page.

Of course, I might just charge for some Chaos Magic stuff.

Pagans, though, are cheap-ass bastards. We are. We're a generally protestant culture (everyone can contact deity equally) that often doesn't want to do hard work (magic can do that for me) and have a persecution complex (no one understands me or likes me, guess I'll go eat worms). There's no value on Clergy in such a culture, and most Neo-Pagans don't get far enough ahead to pay for things, anyway.

So ADF has some problems getting cash. We always will until we can show that our clergy have real value (hard to do with sacrificial priests). Even our training is problematic: we need to show that we're better than the books, better than OBOD, and better than being solitary.

Heh. ADF needs a marketing firm.

Visibility, though, goes a long way in that. That's why I'm so active on LJ, so visible in other communities, and run that damn big website. We have to add value (perceived or real) to ADF.

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Heh. ADF needs a marketing firm.

*ears perk up*

I wanna be in the Marketing Guild!

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I believe that would be third function? Producers?

Get to producin'!

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Years ago we had an "outreach committee", aka marketing subgroup, but nothing ever really happened with it. You're welcome to start it up again ;)

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Darling, stop paying for web hosting-- just come over to my server for free.

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Would you like to host Wikinomi.com? Seeing as I have the domain registered?

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You can if you want to. I have SSH access and Plesk access. It can be set up so you can do everything. And I am serious, you can move Chronarchy.com over if you want. I have an 80GB server with 500GB transfer. I am probably going to bump up because I have a few sites on it (to 250GB/1000GB). It runs on Linux too.

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