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April 27th, 2005


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03:45 pm - Cranes in Ireland were not so nice. . .
I caught this today, and just asked if I could copy the translation:

Athirne the Unsociable

I'm consistently unconvinced that these cranes have anything to do with Esus, but it never hurts to look at them from time to time. Here's hoping he says "yes" so I can put it on my website!

When we first named the Grove "Three Cranes", Gwynne Green asked me if I knew anything about cranes at all, indicating that it was a poor choice. I'd never heard this particular legend, but upon reading it, it doesn't seem to have any actual connection at all (and it certainly doesn't read the way she described it).

(btw, tlachtga, do you have any theories on that? I'd be very interested in your professional opinion.)
Current Mood: curiouscurious
Current Music: "Coconut Telegraph", -JB

(12 comments Leave a comment)

Comments:


From:ceolnamara
Date:April 27th, 2005 09:54 pm (UTC)
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Well, obviously, that explains everything.
From:ceolnamara
Date:April 27th, 2005 11:50 pm (UTC)
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I like how it says "Beware" twice. And in curvy letters.
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From:singingwren
Date:April 27th, 2005 11:50 pm (UTC)

Oh, and also...

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I made something for you. :D

Image hosted by TinyPic.com
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From:tlachtga
Date:April 28th, 2005 01:45 am (UTC)
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I'm still thinking about this, actually. The crane is not only these "unsociable" otherworld animals (belonging to Midir). Manannan's magic bag-o-stuff is made of a crane, also. And the idea of three birds is pretty much inimical to the Otherworld--Rhiannon's three birds, the Morrigan issue (three sisters, three birds, though ravens in this case), the Esus/Taruos Trigaranos issue. So it's more complicated than the story above.

I'm gonna give this some thought and get back to you.
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From:romandruid
Date:April 29th, 2005 12:27 pm (UTC)
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Does this explain any of my own recent grumpiness? Huh.

Oh most high lord of cranky cranes, lendeth us a seat at thy table so that we mayest share in thy swiney-winey dinner. If not, we'll take your three cranes and make Bucci handbags from them!
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From:singingwren
Date:May 2nd, 2005 03:31 am (UTC)

concerning cranes and stuff from your presentation, sorta...

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Since I clearly have not commented enough...
Just randomly searched something and stumbled across a bit of information about cranes. One website was about Cernunnos, and was a little bit questionable, but noted something interesting:

The Romans sometimes showed him with 3 cranes flying over his head.

I don't have time to research that statement right now, but do you have anything to verify that? Or do you think that's the author confusing him with Esus-type mythology? I don't remember if you mentioned cranes in connection to Cernunnos or not, but it does make sense if you go with cranes as underworld-meets-skyworld creatures (plus all the opposites they embody.) Derno, whatchya think?

I also found this:
http://www.isle-of-skye.org.uk/celtic-encyclopaedia/celt_c5c.htm

# 161: Celtic mythology has both solar and underworld symbolism for the crane. It is associated with the solar deities, especially in their healing aspect; it is also depicted with weapons and battle objects. It is a supernatural creature and appears riding on the bags of human-headed horses and in connection with magic cauldrons. On an ancient altar in France three cranes are depicted standing on the back of a bull. But the crane is also a form of Pwyll, King of the Underworld, and as such a herald of death. A completely contrary symbolism obtains in Gallic lore where the crane is a bad omen, depicting meanness, parsimony and evil women. It is an attribute of the Gaulish Mercury and Mars, and as such is connected with war and death. # 454: The crane is no longer native to Britain, but there is a strong Celtic tradition that cranes are people transmogrified into bird-shape, possibly for a penance. Saint Columba turned a queen and his handmaid into cranes as a punishment. One of the wonders of Ireland was supposed to be a crane which lived on the island of InisKea, Co. Mayo; it has been there since the beginning of the world and will live there until the day of judgement. The imperturbable patience of the crane was associated with the Cailleach, and was a secret, magical bird. Its skin went to make Manannan's Cranebag.


And this:
http://groups.msn.com/TheOakGrove/celticbirdlore.msnw

The crane, which sadly has become very rare in Britain, was considered the guardian of the Underworld. The god Midir was the keeper of the 'Three Cranes of Churlishness and Denial'. The crane is also associated with the sea god Manannan, who possessed a bag of magical treasures made from crane skin. The crane is one of the shapes of the ancient Goddess; we find this still perpetuated in folk stories of the crane or stork as a bringer of new life, the new born infant. One of the wonders of Ireland was a crane which was to be found on the island of Innis Kea, in County Mayo, where it had lived since the beginning of the world.

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From:chronarchy
Date:May 2nd, 2005 12:33 pm (UTC)

Re: concerning cranes and stuff from your presentation, sorta...

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First, you need to check out the altar to Cernunnos at Sonoran Sunrise Grove's stone circle. Because, you know, it's damn cool and all.

re: the cranes over Cernunnos. . . I dunno. But I'm looking into it. :)

The thing about it is, I've seen mention where people think that all the deities depicted on the nautes altar are the same god: Esus, Cernunnos, Tarvos Trigaranus, and Smertios.

That's about the only place that I know off the top of my head that three cranes are found with Cernunnos. But I'm working on it :)
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From:chronarchy
Date:May 2nd, 2005 12:36 pm (UTC)

Haha. And you need to see this:

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From:singingwren
Date:May 2nd, 2005 01:50 pm (UTC)

Re: Haha. And you need to see this:

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XD Yes!! Hail, Purple Morrigan! Hail, Blue Taranis! Hail, Brown Cernunnos!
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From:tlachtga
Date:May 4th, 2005 06:06 pm (UTC)

Re: Haha. And you need to see this:

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Oh dear god. or gods. or something. Wow. Yeah, um, that's not what old Cernunnos looks like. Cei would have a stroke!

What is that from, "Thor" or something?
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From:tlachtga
Date:May 4th, 2005 06:42 pm (UTC)
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So I picked up the library's Encyclopedia of Indo-European Culture (ask for it by name!), and they mentioned cranes in two contexts: first, that the Greeks often described them as attacking pygmies, or other non IE peoples. What this means wasn't entirely clear. Secondly, they mentioned the cranes in connection to Esus and the Tarvos sculptures. They mentioned--ha-HA!--a story about Indra fighting a three-headed brahman--its in the S'rimad Devî Bhâgawatam, a Hindu text I really don't know anything about, but seems relevant anyway. Indra was helped by a woodcutter, who chopped off the heads of the brahman. From the three heads sprang three types of birds. This is in prelude to Indra's battle with Vritra the Demon (who here is somehow a brother to the brahmin).

Anyway, the Serpent-slaying God, the Woodcutter, and the Birds all show up here, not entirely unlike the Sailor's Pillar, though obviously with differences.

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