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August 8th, 2006


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02:32 pm - What am I doing?
My lunch break was spent at the library, grabbing books off the shelves in the Indo-European language section of the stacks. I came up with the following items:

Friedrich, Paul. Proto-Indo-European Trees: The Arboreal System of a Prehistoric People. Chicago, IL: University of Chicago Press. 1970

Nussbaum, Alan J. Head and Horn in Indo-European. New York, NY: Walter de Gruyter. 1986

Watkins, Calvert. How to Kill a Dragon: Aspects of Indo-European Poetics. Oxford: Oxford University Press. 1995
And these articles:
Carruba, Onofrio. "Searching for Woman in Anatolian and Indo-European." Perspectives on Indo-European Language, Culture, and Religion: Studies in Honour of Edgar C. Polome (Vol. 1) McLean, VA: Journal of Indo-European Studies. 1991

Lyle, Emily. "Markedness and Encompassment in Relation to Indo-European Cosmogony." Perspectives on Indo-European Language, Culture, and Religion: Studies in Honour of Edgar C. Polome (Vol. 1) McLean, VA: Journal of Indo-European Studies. 1991

Weitenberg, Jos. "The Meaning of the Expression "To Become a Wolf" in Hittite." Perspectives on Indo-European Language, Culture, and Religion: Studies in Honour of Edgar C. Polome (Vol. 1) McLean, VA: Journal of Indo-European Studies. 1991

Buchholz, Peter. "Ancient Lore: Oral Tradition in Medieval Scandanvia." Perspectives on Indo-European Language, Culture, and Religion: Studies in Honour of Edgar C. Polome (Vol. 2) McLean, VA: Journal of Indo-European Studies. 1992

Zysk, Kenneth G. "Reflections on an Indo-European Healing Tradition." Perspectives on Indo-European Language, Culture, and Religion: Studies in Honour of Edgar C. Polome (Vol. 2) McLean, VA: Journal of Indo-European Studies. 1992

Barber, E. J. W. "On αιγ- as 'Protection'." Studies in Honour of Jaan Phuvel: Part One: Ancient Languages and Philology. Washington, DC: Journal of Indo-European Studies. 1997

Fisher, Robert L. "The Lore of the Staff in Indo-European Tradition." Studies in Honour of Jaan Phuvel: Part One: Ancient Languages and Philology. Washington, DC: Journal of Indo-European Studies. 1997

Huld, Martin E. "Magic, Metathesis, and Nudity in Indo-European Thought." Studies in Honour of Jaan Phuvel: Part One: Ancient Languages and Philology. Washington, DC: Journal of Indo-European Studies. 1997

Jones-Bley, Karlene. "Red for the Dead." Studies in Honour of Jaan Phuvel: Part One: Ancient Languages and Philology. Washington, DC: Journal of Indo-European Studies. 1997

Mallory, J. P. "Some Aspects of Indo-European Agriculture." Studies in Honour of Jaan Phuvel: Part One: Ancient Languages and Philology. Washington, DC: Journal of Indo-European Studies. 1997

Streets, Cheryl. "Ajahad u dva mithuna: A Note on Rgveda 10.17.1-2." Studies in Honour of Jaan Phuvel: Part One: Ancient Languages and Philology. Washington, DC: Journal of Indo-European Studies. 1997

Brennemann, Walter L. "The Drunken and the Sober: A Comparative Study of Lady Sovereignty in Irish and Indic Contexts." Studies in Honour of Jaan Phuvel: Part Two: Mythology and Religion. Washington, DC: Journal of Indo-European Studies. 1997

Dexter, Miriam Robbins. "Born of the Foam: Goddesses of River and Sea in the 'Kingship of Heaven' Myth." Studies in Honour of Jaan Phuvel: Part Two: Mythology and Religion. Washington, DC: Journal of Indo-European Studies. 1997

Epstein, Angelique Gulermovich. "The Morrigan and the Valkyries." Studies in Honour of Jaan Phuvel: Part Two: Mythology and Religion. Washington, DC: Journal of Indo-European Studies. 1997 (I'm sort of "blah" about this article, personally. . . Talk about a dull topic!)

Miller, Dean A. "In Search of Indo-European Inter-Functional War." Studies in Honour of Jaan Phuvel: Part Two: Mythology and Religion. Washington, DC: Journal of Indo-European Studies. 1997

Polome, Edgar C. "Some Reflections on the Vedic Religious Vocabulary." Studies in Honour of Jaan Phuvel: Part Two: Mythology and Religion. Washington, DC: Journal of Indo-European Studies. 1997

Sayers, William. "Psychological Warfare in Vinland (Eriks saga Rauða)" Studies in Honour of Jaan Phuvel: Part Two: Mythology and Religion. Washington, DC: Journal of Indo-European Studies. 1997

Strutynski, Udo. "The Sins of Siegfried: Echoes of Indo-European War Crimes in the Nibelungenlied and its Analogues." Studies in Honour of Jaan Phuvel: Part Two: Mythology and Religion. Washington, DC: Journal of Indo-European Studies. 1997
I've been working pretty hard on the Liturgist Guild Study Program recently. It's a decent program, but it has a book required that is listed as "recommended" and the .pdf file could use an update to reflect some current membership statuses. I also reformatted my entire Study Program page to include the Second Circle CTP programs that I'm going to have to do, as well as a link to the LGSP work I'm doing/have done. Raven has promised to inform me by the end of the week whether I've passed the GSP or not (he says if I haven't heard by Friday, I can start "pushing").

Coinciding with that, I'll be updating my webpage, I think. I will also be starting a new journal regarding "domestic cult practice" for the Liturgist Guild's SP.

In other news, Fifth Third Bank has put a stupid, annoying javascript ad over my account balance. "Learn How to Protect Yourself Online" it says. The "close" button doesn't work because the javascript seems broken, meaning that I can't access my online banking unless I hit the "stop" button on the browser before the java ad opens but after the page has loaded.

Well, let me tell you: being completely unable to access your account when you log in legitimately to view your balance is a very good security measure. I just hope that if someone cracks my account, they can't figure out how to crack the javascript load.

Error: uncaught exception: [Exception... "Component returned failure code: 0x8000ffff (NS_ERROR_UNEXPECTED) [nsIPrefBranch.getIntPref]" nsresult: "0x8000ffff (NS_ERROR_UNEXPECTED)" location: "JS frame :: chrome://cookie/content/cookieTasksOverlay.xul :: CookieTasksStartup :: line 84" data: no]

This make it very difficult for me to determine if I do, indeed, have the cash to make it to Chicago this weekend, which is rather annoying.

It's a good thing I know how to turn off JavaScript in this browser. Too bad I have to reactivate it to do anything else.
Current Location: Southeast of Disorder
Current Mood: accomplished
Current Music: "The Stories We Could Tell", -JB

(30 comments Leave a comment)

Comments:


[User Picture]
From:_boy_
Date:August 9th, 2006 11:02 pm (UTC)
(Link)
I also reformatted my entire Study Program page...

I've enjoyed reading your DP and SP work, though I was aware you were quite so "political" (unless that's just for your reviewer).

Regarding the mention of the AODA, I hope I can clear up what appears to be a misperception. First of all, you're right, AODA historically has nothing at all to do with ADF - it's an entirely different beast (one might say, a mesopagan beast ;P). Yes, there are members and ex-members of ADF within AODA (as well as perennial members such as myself), and cross-affiliation is usually seen as a good thing.

That being said, I'm completely confused as to what is meant by this statement, where it comes from and its purpose:
"[AODA] is a revitalized British order of Druidry that has been strongly supported by several ADF and ex-ADF members. This support appears to go only one direction, though: ADF is rarely mentioned in their discussions of Druidry."
You make it sound like AODA is an ungrateful recipient of ADF graces, which isn't the case on so many levels. First of all, AODA may be supported by members and ex-members of ADF, but it's not supported by ADF itself in any official or fraternal capacity. AODA Archdruid John Michael Greer is an active member of ADF, but he's also a member of a score of other groups, including fellow-Revival group OBOD. So, if by "strong support by several ADF and ex-ADF members", you mean support by ADF, that's not true - ADF has consistently distanced itself from Revival Druidry and any dual-memberships are the independent acts of individual members.

On the other hand, ADF is mentioned and discussed frequently on discussion groups, usually favorably. JMG recommends ADF affiliation to many neopagans who are looking for it and the Order accepts ADF DP and SP course work for transfer credit. The only negatives mentioned come from people who found Revival tradition reflecting their needs more than either the IE focus, cultic focus or reconstructionism of ADF.

What examples of "one way" support have you encountered?
[User Picture]
From:chronarchy
Date:August 9th, 2006 11:51 pm (UTC)
(Link)
Bascically, I've not really heard a thing from anyone in AODA favourable about ADF recently, but it's not like we're being insulted, just that we're not important enough to mention. In the recent issue of PanGaia JMG and Isaac were in, JMG didn't mention his affiliation with ADF (though he mentioned other orgs, OBOD in particular), nor the fact that we're publishing his book, which basically made me scratch my head. The above statement quoted comes more from the derth of mention ADF seems to get from them, and the constant chatterings about how cool what AODA is doing on my flist and (especially early in AODA's formation) on the occasional ADF list by ADF members who are not AODA-affiliated.

I have heard rumblings (but they are hearsay and not first-hand knowledge) that JMG and other AODA members have been speaking rather poorly of ADF in public, too, but I wasn't commenting on that (I still am not, because, as I mention, it's hearsay, and I would encourage it to be treated as such. . . I'm mentioning that I heard it because it may inform toward a possible bias in my writing, which I'm happy to admit may occur, but it's not intentional). Just on the fact that the most public exposure that AODA gets, when there's a question or opportunity to talk about other Druid groups, I haven't seen us mentioned, though many ADF and ex-ADF members are strongly involved (and AODA seems, to me at least, to be working toward a middle-ish ground between ADF and OBOD).

And yeah, ADF isn't really supporting AODA, beyond the simple fact that we will point people over there if they ask what other Druid groups are around, or if anyone wants to know of a different study program that's out there (and not ungodly expensive). The members of ADF, though, seem to. And many quite strongly.

As an FYI, I purposefully avoided the word "mesopagan" because I've noticed that some members of masonic-derrived orders (particularly AODA members) seem to be taking offense at that term, and the intent of the piece was not to insult, just to kinda write about what I see. I suppose that it could be seen as insulting, but that's not the intent, promise. :)
[User Picture]
From:_boy_
Date:August 10th, 2006 04:03 am (UTC)

part 1

(Link)
As an FYI, I purposefully avoided the word "mesopagan"

I know, I'm just harassing ya. I saw your disavowal of the term, but couldn't resist using the word to point out a fundamental different between ADF and AODA. I don't use "mesopagan" either, except ironically among Bonewits-savvy folks, and always to highlight the ambiguity of the term "pagan" itself ("Neopaganism" is meaningful because it is used as a self-identification, whereas "Pagan", "paleopagan" and "mesopagan" are only meaningful in terms of external appropriation, IMO).


the intent of the piece was not to insult, just to kinda write about what I see. I suppose that it could be seen as insulting, but that's not the intent, promise. :)

I didn't think the intent was to insult, otherwise I wouldn't bother responding at all. I wasn't insulted, just disappointed - "Why not excellence?" and all that. Because I respect you and your work (and have often thought of you as the future Archdruid), I feel I can tell you when your work gets sloppy. It just seems like some of your essays have moved from being creative and critical to being contrarian, then to resembling polemics on a "party line". This page is just one example where something that should've been basic comprehension turned into something personal and incoherent. Snark is good and your snark is especially good when it is iconoclastic and satirical of pomp. You're not very good at "mean".


Just on the fact that the most public exposure that AODA gets, when there's a question or opportunity to talk about other Druid groups, I haven't seen us mentioned

Where have you been looking?


ADF isn't really supporting AODA, beyond the simple fact that we will point people over there if they ask what other Druid groups are around

Yeah, AODA lists ADF among its list of other druid groups, too (though I haven't been able to find a mention of AODA at www.adf.org except as a footnote to a press release on JMG's A World Full of Gods).

Also, I did a quick search of AODA's public list and found that 169 posts mention ADF... that's 169 out of 7030 -- that's 2.4% of ALL posts, not just the posts where people "talk about other Druid groups". You folks are BIG - no conversation about "other Druid groups" is likely to omit ADF, so again, I'm not sure how you got the idea that AODA doesn't mention ADF when the opportunity arises. The "public exposure that AODA gets" is pretty much the public e-list, the website and JMG's The Druidry Handbook - the first two mention ADF, and though I don't have TDH, I can't imagine that it would list other druid groups and not mention ADF.

Here is a pretty standard response to people asking about differences and similarities among druid groups; notice as a post appears on the thread that can be perceived as critical of ADF as opposed to a mere contrast of groups, that response fizzled. The majority of "criticism" I've seen of ADF is simply contrast - ADF is a Neopagan church devoted to IE religious forms, while AODA is an initiatory order (though incorporated as a church) devoted to personal growth and nature spirituality - they're apples and oranges.

more...
[User Picture]
From:chronarchy
Date:August 10th, 2006 12:33 pm (UTC)

Re: part 1

(Link)
The Archdruid election I'm running in is in 2038. Vote MJD.

You're not very good at "mean".

Well, in my defense, I'd have done better at it, had I been trying for it :)

Where have you been looking?

The PanGaia article was the first omission I really felt left out in. I don't recall exactly why (I didn't buy the mag, just read the article in the store), but even JMG's bio, where he's listing his affiliations, ADF is left out. That's when I started noticing that for all the emails I've sent out from the ADF Office, the mentions and praises I've seen on my LJ Flist, and the publication of JMG's book (once we got a new Chronicler who could do the job), I wasn't actually seeing anything coming back.

Again, it's just. . . confusion more than anything else. I am, admittedly, newly under the impression that AODA feels like it's "competing" with ADF, though everything I've sent out and seen from ADF's members is positive toward them. So, yeah. I can't figure a lot of them out.

Can't see the response: I'm not on their list. Might sign up to see it later and then sign right off again (I can't handle any more list trafic).

This short essay, btw, was the last one I wrote, and also the one I worked hardest on from that course. I agonized over it a lot, and I really don't like it. It was, in the end, the best I could do with what I had available, which isn't much. I didn't find a lot of "We left ADF!" posts or pages lying around, so I had to dig pretty damn deep for some very superficial information.

The info on FoDLA and CD, though, came from personal experience: everything I wrote in those was from correspondance and contact with the organizers specifically.
[User Picture]
From:_boy_
Date:August 10th, 2006 04:39 pm (UTC)

ping

(Link)
The Archdruid election I'm running in is in 2038. Vote MJD.

*starts stocking Geritol for the campaign trail*


Can't see the response: I'm not on their list. Might sign up to see it later and then sign right off again

Oops. I assumed that that AODA public list was a public list. If you're curious, just sign up as "No email" and read from the web - I'm a member of dozens of groups I never read except on occasion. Also, I don't see what you send from ADF office or what ADFers write on ADF lists either.
[BTW, as we speak, criticisms of Skip's presentation in The Solitary Druid were countered by JMG, stating:
> I couldn't find anywhere in the book where the term
> "Mighty Kindreds," the spirits, deities and ancestors
> involved in ADF style daily offerings, came from; he
> just states that is what they are called.
>
Like most of what ADF does, this is an ADF invention based on mid-20th
century scholarly speculations about ancient Indo-European religion. I
don't think the term is specifically from Georges Dumezil, the main
source of ADF's theology, but it might be.

> My main frustration with the book though, was an
> attitude of presenting the ADF concept of certain
> experiences as fact, when my experience and observation
> among others has been that such things are entirely
> subjective. I had a moment in which I felt like I
> was reading the Bible.
>
Hmm! Well, Skip's very deeply committed to the ADF vision of Druidism,
and he's been involved with that tradition long enough that it does
probably seem to him like the one right way to do things. ADF has
always seen itself as a church in something like the standard American
style, with its own clearly defined beliefs, practices, and taboos. We
do things differently in AODA, of course, but that's simplyt a matter of
personal preference.
Another person shared a similar frustration with "he tends to present the ADF way of doing things as "the Druid way" without any qualification--which is annoying to those of us who are Druids with other ways of doing things" and a criticism of the aesthetic style of rituals presented, but finished with:
I ought to 'fess up, though, and say that I joined ADF this week. I thought it might help with the polytheism thing. (Aside to JMG--That's all your fault, O Grand ArchDruid, what with the converting me with your book.) But my heart belongs to AODA.
Sonds pretty supportive to me, even when it disagrees the most.]
The PanGaia article was the first omission I really felt left out in.

I looked for the article but only found the table of contents - it looks like JMG's writing an article on Revival Druidry, specifically the similarities between the time of the Revival and our time, with the emphasis on the druid as "symbol of hope" in crafting "a spirituality and way of life in harmony with nature". JMG's membership in ADF may be relevant to that, but not necessarily so, and seeing that Isaac's mug is featured on the cover and first story, I don't think ADF is lacking in press.


more...
[User Picture]
From:chronarchy
Date:August 10th, 2006 05:08 pm (UTC)

Re: ping

(Link)
"he tends to present the ADF way of doing things as "the Druid way" without any qualification--which is annoying to those of us who are Druids with other ways of doing things"

*nods* Which is what JMG's book ("the Druid's Handbook" or something similar) also does. As does every Wiccan book out there, even the ones that are tied to a specific tradition: "Wiccans believe" or "Druids believe" is a common thread in these books.
[User Picture]
From:_boy_
Date:August 10th, 2006 04:41 pm (UTC)

pong

(Link)
I am, admittedly, newly under the impression that AODA feels like it's "competing" with ADF

"Competing" in what way? Not for members, as multiple affiliations is the norm within AODA (I'm pretty rare with only three or so affiliations). Competition in vision? AODA's vision is different, but not in conflict with ADF.


...though everything I've sent out and seen from ADF's members is positive toward them

Not from my experience historically, no. When I was more a part of the ADF milieu, OBOD was the red-headed stepchild, the butt of unkind jokes, and Revival movements were lumped with 21 Lessons as things to avoid. Until AODA's recent popularity and tempered by ADFers within AODA, I wouldn't have expected anything different regarding them.


Re: Your response to Meso: why couldn't I find that on the AODA pages? I'd have much rather mentioned that. :)

Which part? It's not likely that they are going to make a point of rejecting the mesopagan label if it's not a term they use.

  • Meso as implying insufficient? It's what happens when someone uses a relational term, and then forgetting the point of reference, uses the term as an essential definition. Just as all roads do not lead to Rome, not all roads lead to Neopaganism, no matter how much they inspire Neopagans.

  • Non-Pagans in AODA? That's explicitly mentioned in the FAQ and the e-list, and implicitly in the About us page.

  • That "Masonic-derived" isn't accurate? Their relationship to Masonry and British Druidry? See AODA history.


    This short essay, btw, was.., in the end, the best I could do with what I had available, which isn't much...

    The info on FoDLA and CD, though, came from personal experience: everything I wrote in those was from correspondance and contact with the organizers specifically.


    It might've been the best you could do with such a triumphalist question, too. Honestly, though, your stuff on FoDLA and CD come off as personal and don't describe their history or work. I know that these two are recent and public defections with bad blood, but all the better when discerning the structure and dynamics of the ADF current. Also, the oft-repeated ADF line about IB shaping the "RDNA into something more than a joke", obscures rather than clarifies the movements at work and ADF's place in them - interestingly, you take your own jokes more seriously.

    Eh, no worries on that :) I'm difficult to annoy or offend.

    I figured, but just felt like clarifying my intentions, too, so that if you think that I'm an asshole, at least I'm not an unfriendly or unsupportive asshole.

    ;)
  • [User Picture]
    From:chronarchy
    Date:August 10th, 2006 05:23 pm (UTC)

    Re: pong

    (Link)
    your stuff on FoDLA and CD come off as personal and don't describe their history or work.

    Part of the issue there is that I don't see either history or work in either group. They're too young to have much history, and neither one seems to be moving.

    As for a "triumphalist question", I'm not sure how the question could be worded better. I don't really like it, becuase it forces me to say, "Well, there kinda is no work in group X, and group Y doesn't appear to have any history beyond 'we left ADF'." I suppose it should probably ask for specific groups, actually.

    "Describe four of the following six Druid groups plus one group of your choice. Indicate their vital statistics (membership size, where they're located, and how they're spread geographically), their reasons for splitting with ADF, and what they're doing today."

    That way, we could include some work on OBOD and AODA without having to pretend that just because there are some ADF members in them, they're a splinter.

    SPLINTER!

    Sorry.

    You'll note that I didn't at all indicate that IB shaped RDNA into something more. I don't think that he did. I think RDNA shaped *him* more than he shaped it. I haven't really encountered the idea that he did have that effect, really. At least, not recently. I vaguely recall hearing something like that in the past.

    As for taking my jokes more seriously: taking a joke seriously is a form of play, really, and not . . . actually serious, except within the parameters of that play, where all things are actually very serious. But then, I could get into the rules of play, how important they are, and how much they can be bent and still be "within bounds".
    [User Picture]
    From:_boy_
    Date:August 10th, 2006 06:15 pm (UTC)

    Re: pong

    (Link)
    You'll note that I didn't at all indicate that IB shaped RDNA into something more. I don't think that he did. I think RDNA shaped *him* more than he shaped it.

    I might agree that he was more shaped by RDNA than vice versa, but I was quoting you - you didn't say that IB shaped RDNA, because some old skool RDNA groves still exist and IB's Neopagan project was transfered to ADF; however, you did say that "Bonewits helped to shape the RDNA into something more than a joke, helping turn (at least a few) RDNA groves into practicing Neo-Pagan groups". This is where I was saying was an oft-repeated line and "obscures rather than clarifies the movements at work". I was thinking much in terms of your next paragraph...


    As for taking my jokes more seriously: taking a joke seriously is a form of play, really, and not . . . actually serious, except within the parameters of that play, where all things are actually very serious. But then, I could get into the rules of play, how important they are, and how much they can be bent and still be "within bounds".

    Your posts on the ludic nature of ritual are what inspire my remaining interest in ADF and other groups - I want to dress up in funny costumes and play hard at the things of life. Shucking all attempts at reconstruction or revalorization, AODA is pretty hard-core ludic with a healthy dose of luddite. In the early years, much discussion I saw from ADFers involved in AODA was that it provided a framework for them to pursue personally meaningful projects that fell outside ADF's bounds of play; people don't want to leave ADF nor do they want to water down its structure. In that sense, to many, AODA is a creaive lab or playground.

    I, on the other hand, identify more with ecospirituality, Western Romanticism and occult development, so for me, ADF is the arena for creative play. I want to be inspired by the ADF milieu, but not tied to it. So, when I re-join ADF*, it will be with the intention of doing the DP and SP, probably another guild program, but with no intention of being clergy. In any case, the two are complimentary for most and I don't see a need for competition, nor do I see AODA competing with anyone. So rest at ease. ;)

    *[I would've joined already but PayPal is an unfamiliar hassle to me - moving money, waiting for it to be available, emailing it, waiting for a response, etc. Maybe I'll get around to it this weekend.]
    [User Picture]
    From:chronarchy
    Date:August 10th, 2006 06:33 pm (UTC)

    Re: pong

    (Link)
    Ah. That was a much, much earlier essay. Wrote that one back in. . . wow. Probably middle of last year or earlier. That would explain why I missed it :)

    I wouldn't go with that theory now.

    Ease, I assure you, is rested at, and has been.

    I really do want to re-work these essays, though. I have the distinct feeling that I will get the chance: As of. . . 2:17 PM today, this is the only course that is still pending approval. If it is rejected tonight, I will re-write it tonight, and much of this discussion will get cited, I'm happy to say.
    [User Picture]
    From:chronarchy
    Date:August 10th, 2006 05:29 pm (UTC)

    Re: pong

    (Link)
    Btw, a number of links were broken on the AODA pages when I tried to dig up information, too. Pariticularly, anything under "about" refused to come up for about a week.

    I probably ought to have mentioned that in the essay, but forgot. I'm planning on suggesting a change, btw, to the requirement at this point and doing a re-write once I hear back from the ADF Preceptor.
    [User Picture]
    From:_boy_
    Date:August 10th, 2006 04:53 am (UTC)

    part 2

    (Link)
    I've not really heard a thing from anyone in AODA favourable about ADF recently, but it's not like we're being insulted, just that we're not important enough to mention.

    Dude, you're HUGE and can't be avoided in any conversation that pertains to Neopagan Druidry. Was it intentional to list OBOD and not ADF? I don't know, but I can think of reasons why an archdruid might trim ADF as a descriptor - if both JMG and IB were interviewed, maybe a comparison/contrast was desired. Also, OBOD isn't as represented in the US as ADF is. Also, OBOD is a Druid Revival group just like AODA, and this is how JMG identifies himself these days (he mentioned that his daily work involves an exercise from OBOD tradition and one from AODA; I don't know if his ADF practice is as central to his life, yo). Seriously, has ADF not been featured in PanGaia before? When they are featured, do they pimp AODA or Keltria or OBOD or any other groups? If so, I've missed it. (rhetorically speaking, since I don't normally read PanGaia)


    The above statement quoted comes more from the derth of mention ADF seems to get from them, and the constant chatterings about how cool what AODA is doing on my flist and (especially early in AODA's formation) on the occasional ADF list

    Young love, dude. Either that, or AODA is doing some things that ADF members think are cool. But again, you're talking about chatter by ADF members on ADF lists, not discussions from ADF leadership; the fact still remains that ADF IS discussed on similar lists in AODA, even if AODA leadership doesn't pimp ADF in an interview. Whatever you're wanting from AODA doesn't seem to be anything that ADF is willing to give either.


    (and AODA seems, to me at least, to be working toward a middle-ish ground between ADF and OBOD).

    IMO, OBOD is "working toward a middle-ish ground between ADF and OBOD" (i.e., moving more toward mainstream Neopaganism), whereas AODA is drawing on the environmental orientation of OBOD as well as opening toward its fraternal and occult/lodge roots. Of course, the neopagan current is extremely strong in AODA, but a look at what projects it has started over the last couple of years points toward other priorities - the embryonic woodcraft/scouting movement of Earthcraft, the Gnostic Druid Fellowship, formation of its first Chapter House, and The Archdruid Report blog on postindutrial culture and peak oil, etc. AODA is more networky than churchy, from my experience.


    I've noticed that some members of masonic-derrived orders (particularly AODA members) seem to be taking offense at that term [mesopagan]

    Well, besides being a meaningless term. anything with a pre-fix of "meso" implies that it isn't quite something else; in other words, it's a derivative designation, implying that the object is insufficiently developed (like calling a godhi a "pre-Christian" rather than "non-Christian"). Also, many in AODA don't consider themselves "Pagan", so the term seems doubly irrelevant. Third, technically, AODA is not derived from Masonry, but was formed by a Mason and Rosicrucian; the name AODA actually was taken by the offshoot which removed the Order from Masonic affiliation. Lastly, it's only a British Druid order in the sense that its parent organization (like all Revival Druids) formed in Britain.

    Anyway, it's late and I've annoyed you long enough. Hope you take my words in the spirit in which they're written.
    [User Picture]
    From:chronarchy
    Date:August 10th, 2006 12:39 pm (UTC)

    Re: part 2

    (Link)
    My recollection of the article was that JMG was asked something about "other druidic orders", and Isaac was not. But, in fairness, I might just be making that up :) My memory is. . . pretty darn bad.

    But regarding the question of discussions occurring on AODA servers, those aren't things I've seen. I have no information on that, and it's not publicly available for me to have access to, either.

    Re: Your response to Meso: why couldn't I find that on the AODA pages? I'd have much rather mentioned that. :)

    Hope you take my words in the spirit in which they're written.

    Eh, no worries on that :) I'm difficult to annoy or offend.

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