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July 9th, 2008


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02:13 pm - "Lambeth" has always sounded like a tasty dish to me
The Church of England has voted to consecrate women as Bishops.

The Vatican responded pretty darn quick:
"We have regretfully learned of the Church of England vote to pave the way for the introduction of legislation which will lead to the ordaining of women to the Episcopacy.

The Catholic position on the issue was clearly expressed by Pope Paul VI and Pope John Paul II. Such a decision signifies a breaking away from the apostolic tradition maintained by all of the Churches since the first millennium, and therefore is a further obstacle for the reconciliation between the Catholic Church and the Church of England.

This decision will have consequences on the future of dialogue, which had up until now born fruit, as Cardinal Kasper had clearly explained when he spoke on June 5 2006 to all of the bishops of the Church of England at the invitation of the Archbishop of Canterbury.
The Cardinal has been invited once again to express the Catholic position at the next Lambeth Conference at the end of July."
To which I say:

We can dress like women because we ordain them. What's your excuse?



(Yeah, that's totally one of my favourite bumper stickers. It pokes good fun at all of us with vestments. . .)

I know that the CoE and the Vatican have been trying for reconciliation for the better part of five hundred years, but really? Do you really think that wagging your finger at them from Rome is going to help?

I think that the thing that particularly interests me is that in affirming that women can become bishops, they also affirmed that some people "as a matter of theological conviction will not be able to receive the ministry of women as bishops or priests," indicating that they're going to make "special arrangements" for people in that position. This interests me most because it shows a deep theological (okay, theologically sexist, but we're being polite, I think) split in the CoE.

Watching the drama from such a distance (I have little or no vested interest in CoE proceedings and the hypocrisy of their dress patterns and ordination standards, admittedly), I often wonder how we in ADF might handle such a deep divide. We always have the "We don't actually care what you believe, just what you do" argument going for us, I suppose (orthopraxy vs. orthodoxy), but it's not a perfect argument.

Of course, if someone feels that women (or LGBT persons, or black people, or veterans, or whomever) cannot be priests or Archdruid or Preceptor of the Fluffy Bunny SIG or whatever, I don't think I want them sacrificing at the same fire as myself anyway. In many ways, I hope that we would not compromise in the way the CoE has.

I have a feeling that a number of the people being threatened with schism in the CoE feel the same way. . .
Current Location: Southeast of Disorder
Current Mood: awake
Current Music: "Viva Las Vegas", -JB

(16 comments Leave a comment)

Comments:


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From:sparkliedragon
Date:July 9th, 2008 06:20 pm (UTC)

Sort of off-topic...

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How do you keep your faith alive in the day-to-day stuff? I've been having a lot of problems lately connecting with the gods. Part of that is because I'm lazy and don't try, but...I don't have the motivation to do any spiritual work.
[User Picture]
From:chronarchy
Date:July 9th, 2008 06:46 pm (UTC)

Re: Sort of off-topic...

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Primarily, I'm of the "just do it" sort of variety: by acting in a pious manner, you'll find yourself getting more and more involved in it on a personal, spiritual level.

If you'd like, I can send you a copy of a bunch of suggestions I presented at Wellspring last year.

Also, "When you feel least like praying, that is when you most need it." Good words of wisdom, those.
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From:dragynphyre
Date:July 9th, 2008 06:45 pm (UTC)
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I WANT that bumper sticker. There's 8 RC churches in my city (avg 1 per square mile), and it'd get much mileage.
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From:chronarchy
Date:July 9th, 2008 07:03 pm (UTC)
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I forget where I originally saw it, but if I see one, maybe I'll pick it up for you :)
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From:chronarchy
Date:July 9th, 2008 07:02 pm (UTC)
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"Empenised"? Lovely word. I imagine that religiously imbuing female bishops with strap-ons just won't do the job?

You're probably right, that we won't end up in this particular quagmire. Still, people get strong feelings about things, and whether they're theological or not (it could be over the colour of the Archdruid's shoes in ritual—looks petty on the surface, but Isaac only wore red high-tops, you know, so Skip's white sneakers after Labor Day is really kickin' tradition in the balls), answering the "big" questions is tough.

Does the final meeting of Archdruid and Anti-Archdruid result in a mud-wrestling competition?
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[User Picture]
From:chronarchy
Date:July 9th, 2008 07:23 pm (UTC)
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Well, you do "lay hands" upon a new Bishop, after all. I could see the exact direction it would go.

It is simply amazing how the human mind creates hierarchy, particularly in Pagan circles, where the people are so opposed to it.

I once got chided for wearing a black robe to Imbolc. My white one, at the time, was covered in black mold, but explaining that didn't make the situation any better. . .

Actually, Fox got the chair from Isaac in a game of musical chairs, but you're correct that Skip won his in a mud wrestling match. There are pictures on the ADF site that prove it. Or something.
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From:chronarchy
Date:July 9th, 2008 07:40 pm (UTC)
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Clearly :)

I think Fox only made it a few years. There were . . . stresses . . . during his tenure, from what I understand, that really wore on him.
[User Picture]
From:tlachtga
Date:July 9th, 2008 09:47 pm (UTC)
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but Isaac only wore red high-tops, you know, so Skip's white sneakers after Labor Day is really kickin' tradition in the balls

Pfft. They're both wrong. Black hi-top Converse all-stars, faded to an acceptable grey. Like mine.
[User Picture]
From:chronarchy
Date:July 10th, 2008 12:59 am (UTC)
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Follow the shoe! tlachtga for AD!
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[User Picture]
From:chronarchy
Date:July 9th, 2008 07:24 pm (UTC)
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500 years, almost. Maybe it's the "almost" that has the Vatican in an uproar.
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From:heimskringla
Date:July 9th, 2008 07:24 pm (UTC)
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This has been going on in various CoE-related churches since the 70's. The modern CoE has made very valiant attempts at creating and maintaining a big tent, but there comes a point when Anglicanism has to stand up for itself and say "This is who we are," and they've been unwilling to do that.

Robes are fairly unisex garments, as an aside, but I fail to see how ordaining women is really that problematic theologically; I certainly understand the basis of the argument that female ordination is impermissible, but I find it to be generally flawed.

Then again, I'm a gnostic bishop, so I have about as much investment in this as a Druid.
[User Picture]
From:chronarchy
Date:July 9th, 2008 07:39 pm (UTC)
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Then again, I'm a gnostic bishop, so I have about as much investment in this as a Druid.

Yeah, but it's fun to speculate on, isn't it?

I've noticed that this has been a long progression, from ordaining women as priests to electing one as presiding bishop of the Episcopal Church to the CoE allowing their consecration them as Bishops this week. I have found it interesting to see where the opposition comes from.

And yeah, I think robes are unisex, too, but I'm rather amused by the sentiment.
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From:tlachtga
Date:July 9th, 2008 09:43 pm (UTC)
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One of [John Paul I's] remarks, reported in the press, was that we should see God not only as Father, but also as Mother.* Naturally, he only lasted a month.

Of course, if someone feels that women (or LGBT persons, or black people, or veterans, or whomever) cannot be priests or Archdruid or Preceptor of the Fluffy Bunny SIG or whatever, I don't think I want them sacrificing at the same fire as myself anyway.

Hopefully those people don't last long in ADF, or at least don't seem to attempt to change us--not that I've noticed, anyway, and I've been in ADF for about five(!) years now, so at least that gives me a little perspective. But yes, if we ever bowed to that sort of pressure, I don't think I could stick around. Or at least I'd fight it as long as I could, and if it didn't work, I'd just have to leave. But I can't see it happening.

*Wikipedia, but I've seen that line before.
[User Picture]
From:chronarchy
Date:July 10th, 2008 03:09 pm (UTC)
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I often hope that we're open enough that the jerks get uncomfortable really fast.
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From:erinelf88
Date:July 11th, 2008 04:40 am (UTC)
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You know, Mike, I actually had a discussion about female ordination with a VERY Catholic friend of mine, and I was surprised to learn he was all for it. He agrees with the Catholic church on almost every issue, but ordination of women and politics are the two he disagrees with the most.

In his view, if you believe in an all-powerful God, you must, by necessity, believe that that God can do as He wishes- including ordaining women, if He so chose. Telling women they cannot be ordained by God is like telling them that this all-powerful God is limited.

Granted, I don't even KNOW what I am, so I suppose I have to right to talk about religion at all, except in a hypothetical sense.
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From:chronarchy
Date:July 11th, 2008 01:14 pm (UTC)
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*nods* I'm not too surprised. There are a lot of Catholics who don't tow the complete party line, even if they tow most of it. It's interesting to me how maintaining that identity is so important in so many cases, even when the belief evaporates. Abortion, birth control, ordination of women, and many other issues often stand out as particular disagreements with the home church.

His is a very good argument, though. I'd be curious what someone trained in Catholic theology would respond to that with.

And everyone has a right to talk about religion: it's a fundamental right, as humans. So please don't stop. :)

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