July 22nd, 2008
|02:48 pm - Wondering Why We Ever Go Home: Greece, 2007|
So, from the trip I took 15 months ago, I've finally gotten all the journal entries posted.
Thar be Centaurs!
See the "greece" tag for all entries related to Greece.
I haven't made a post yet about how the trip itself went. Sure, I hinted at it, and I did post all the fully unedited entries from the trip (some of the grammar is atrocious, but I left it entirely unedited), but I didn't really talk a lot about the entire thing.
While I might write a bit more over time about what I saw and did, and while I might post some more pictures, for now, those of you who didn't get a chance to read all of it might find it cool to slip back through the old entires.
Sights I missed:
Clearly, I must return.
- The ghostly reenactment of Marathon that occurs each night
- The plain of Marathon itself
- The theatre at Epidaurus
- Brauron (sorta: I was there, but not "there", ya know?)
- Wherever the "Centaurs this way" sign led
- Tasting "The Liquid Food Experience"
- The Cave of St. Dionysus on Mt. Olympus
- The monestary of St. Barabra
The monasteries at Meteora | The monastery of St. Barbara | A view of Mt. Olympus from Dion
Current Location: Southeast of Disorder
Current Mood: amused
Current Music: "Son of a Son of a Sailor", -JB
Sure. I've seen a couple, but I still don't actually believe in ghosts. :)
But I'm weird like that.
So seeing isn't believing? :)
Not in my case. I've also seen three UFO's, but don't believe in them :)
How does that work, exactly? *perplexed expression*
Dunno whether it "works," but it's just sort of how it goes.
Ghosts and the restless dead don't really have a place in the cosmos for me: they're chaotic and outside of the realm of possibility, really. Aliens have their own issues, which are similar but not entirely the same.
Perhaps it's because I've spent too much time reading the PGM, but there's little honest use for a ghost, or the wandering dead, in my opinion.
Maybe we have different definitions of "ghost" - I think there can be meaningful interactions with spirits of those that have passed on - but I usually think of them as Spirits of our ancestors versus "ghosts". I do think there can be residual energy that "repeats" itself, but they aren't sentient beings.
Do you think that you may be missing out on some cool experiences by dismissing them as not possible?
*nods* Ancestral spirits are different to me than ghosts, as well, and meaningful interaction is possible with them. However, they don't hang out *here* in my general conception.
I might be missing out on cool experiences, I suppose, but generally this attitude just makes me less afraid of the dark, I've noticed :)
|Date:||July 23rd, 2008 07:39 pm (UTC)|| |
Seeing something doesn't necessarily justify any given identification or explanation of it.
Reminds me of those people who see "orbs" in their nighttime flash photos, and believe that they're ghosts rather than dust. For them, seeing something is believing something else. For me, seeing is definitely not believing in that case.
I actually wasn't implying that seeing is *always* believing, but that it is sort of confusing to me to see a "thing", call it a "thing", but not believe that it is a "thing".
Edited at 2008-07-23 08:56 pm (UTC)
|Date:||July 24th, 2008 02:29 pm (UTC)|| |
I think the seeing/calling it a "thing" can be more about verbal shorthand than actually believing that what was seen was actually a "thing". And that name of "thing" can have different meanings in the "I saw a" part of the sentence than in the "don't believe in" part of the sentence. (Yes, semantics. :-)
Of course, getting back to the phrasing that started this, remember what "UFO" actually stands for.....
|Date:||July 24th, 2008 02:52 pm (UTC)|| |
Indeed, in at least one case, I'm pretty sure that it was a weather balloon. Which is the same thing as a UFO in my mind.
And despite not believing in ghosts, I do know what they're supposed to do, and the qualities they're supposed to have. When I see something that "fits the bill" (as I did on Walhalla
one night), I can identify it using terminology that's broadly accepted without compromising my own beliefs regarding afterlife or the disposition of souls.
Just as I don't believe in dragons, but can identify them on sight, I can also locate and ID a ghost pretty quickly. I also have no issue believing that certain spells
would actually call up ghosts, too.
There are, I suspect, other explanations, but I think that my ability to hold two contradictory beliefs simultaneously (a basic skill required for Chaos Magic) is really at the root of this.
That makes sense, or doesn't, depending on how you view it. I am interested to find out exactly *what* you think the "ghosts" you have seen actually *are*...
|Date:||July 24th, 2008 03:17 pm (UTC)|| |
Well, that's more complicated, but just as simple. I think that they were ghosts. Which leaves me stuck with two options:
- I didn't see anything.
- Ghosts exist, because I saw one.
However, I don't think that either of these particular options are satisfactory. Clearly, I saw something: point one is refuted; however, just because I saw it doesn't make it any more likely to be real than if thirty thousand people saw it: point two is refuted.
Simply put, seeing is not necessarily believing. Just because I can see the Virgin Mary in a grilled cheese sandwich
doesn't mean she's actually hanging out there in all her cheezy glory. Why would she be there? What sense does that make in the cosmos? If it doesn't make sense, then does she really reside in her cheesy-wunderbready-world?
The fact of the matter is, if ghosts exist, then they exist outside the cosmos: their presence is not part of an ordered universe (in the ordered universe, ancestors exist and take part in the reciprocal relationship we have with them; they don't hang out and scare the shit out of people), nor is it part of the natural way the world is supposed to work (if ghosts hang out, it's due to something entirely unnatural, such as violence or a death that comes earlier than it should).
The only people who might have truck with ghosts are magicians, and you know what a slimy lot they
(On a side note, you're about to find out just how sleezy those magicians are: this has inspired a new post. . .)
And really, nothing is *really* real anyway. Our reality is made up of contructs that are "believed in" - some constructs are more global than others, some are quite personal. One of my favorites in this area is Ken Wilber: kenwilber.com
Point and Point! ;)