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Ár nDraíocht Féin
Three Cranes
Chaos Matrix

March 10th, 2004

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10:46 am - I am Manganese Carrot-Squirrel
And I have written the following essay:


Please take a moment to read it and comment on it. Pretty please?
Current Mood: awake
Current Music: "Changing Channels", -JB
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(38 comments Leave a comment)


Date:March 10th, 2004 08:20 am (UTC)
Umm... go you? Haha, I cannot give an opinion. I've never been a Druid or a Wiccan. :/

It's easy to read and understand if that's what you are looking for. :)
[User Picture]
Date:March 10th, 2004 08:24 am (UTC)
Yeah, for once in my life, having never been a Wiccan was a disadvantage :)

But at least it doesn't read like the current essay, which is pure schlock.
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[User Picture]
Date:March 10th, 2004 08:42 am (UTC)
Yeah, I probably did. Now that you mention it, it does look rather, um, "funny~ish"
[User Picture]
Date:March 10th, 2004 08:36 am (UTC)
I like that you point out that Wicca is not quite as standardized as it seems; moreover, that you actually compare it to ADF and not some vague concept of what Druidry is. Wicca can mean all sorts of things, from Gardnerian/Alexandrian Wicca, to Cunningham's Solitary Wicca, which are at different ends of the spectrum. Reading both Drawing Down the Moon and A Witch's Bible gives a decent history/picture of the different forms of Wicca, the latter I think based on Gardnerian Wicca. And then you have the hordes of Fluffy Bunnies, which are, as far as I'm concerned, a weak shadow of Solitary Wicca.

However, there are a few things that maybe could be added, such as Wiccan magical practices (drawing a circle, the Book of Shadows) which are not part of ADF. How ADF is an actual organization, as opposed to a lose collection of covens which may or may not recognize each other. That one must be invited into a Gardnerian/Alexandrian coven (IIRC), while at ADF, everything must be public. Things like that.
[User Picture]
Date:March 10th, 2004 08:43 am (UTC)
I don't think that the lack of a BoS is all that important, really, and I touched on drawing a circle, and how ADF has some standard things. The "public" bit maybe should go in, though.

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Date:March 10th, 2004 09:42 am (UTC)

Carrots are gross.

I'll read it later, once class is done.
[User Picture]
Date:March 10th, 2004 10:15 am (UTC)

Re: Carrots are gross.


Okay. But it's vitally important and you should read it as soon as possible. Yeah.
[User Picture]
Date:March 10th, 2004 10:21 am (UTC)

Metaphors and Daydreams

Nice... though I'd like to see a discussion like that expanded beyond the metaphors that are used, comparing the more basic archtypes etc.

Hrmmm, could be fun.
[User Picture]
Date:March 10th, 2004 11:15 am (UTC)
From reading the essay as well as others comments I am assuming this is going into an ADF website or book? I think it is does pretty well with giving a brief overview and general outline of the two. It is very clear and easy to read. The only part I'm not so keen on is the one Goddess bit (which a few others have commented on as well). I have actually only met one Dianic (the one you spoke with of course) but still, my understanding was they put the Goddess above the God (She is the Creator) but they still recognize she had a consort (the God) even though he may have a lesser position. This was my understanding from Sprial Dance as well. But overall, a minor point of contention. Nice Job!
[User Picture]
Date:March 10th, 2004 11:31 am (UTC)
Yeah, it's designed to go on the ADF website, to replace this essay:

Druidism and Wicca

Don't bother reading it unless you want to get mad :) It's pissed off more Wiccans than I can count. Heck, it offended me by offending Wiccans, and that's quite the accomplishment.

The Goddess/God dynamic, as presented in Dianic and SD is, in my understanding, is that the God is part of the Goddess, and actually not independent of Her. And there are a few Dianics (like Silver) who deny any God.
[User Picture]
Date:March 10th, 2004 11:29 am (UTC)
ADF has people with a broad range of afterlife theories.

change to:
People in ADF have a broad range of afterlife theories.

ADF ritual sees each deity as an individual entity. The ritual assumes polytheism and deals with each deity in its own.

Change to:
..... deals with each deity on its own.

Grove Organizers (and Senior Druids) should also try to remember to avoid comparisons to Wiccan ritual during pre-ritual briefings.

Actually, this needs to say something about avoiding judgements, I think, rather than avoiding comparisons... because as you say at the end, it IS important to speak to the lack of calling quarters and the open circle,and other such generically assumed things.

General comments:

MUCH better than what is there now....

I wonder about the comment about not raising energy, though, because we ALWAYS raise energy - or at least, the energy is there, during our rituals. I know Kirk also has pieces to raise energy - such as the counter-clockwise circle and chant we use to open the gates. So, perhaps that needs to be reworded to say "ADF builds energy in other ways."

Anyway - great work. Thanks for doing it!
[User Picture]
Date:March 10th, 2004 11:44 am (UTC)
Made those changes, mostly. The second change you suggested was a sentence that I forgot to end, but that still magically got a period at the end.
[User Picture]
Date:March 10th, 2004 01:42 pm (UTC)
Thank you, I learned alot by this....
[User Picture]
Date:March 10th, 2004 01:44 pm (UTC)
Good :) That's the plan.

I've been updating it all day on suggestions from people. I'd say once every hour or so since I posted it. It's kinda crazy :)

Glad it was useful :)
[User Picture]
Date:March 10th, 2004 07:11 pm (UTC)

Take three...

Edit: once more, with feeling and links that work!

Hrm... well, you asked for comments...

This seems to be about American Wicca, not inclusive of British Traditional (Gardnerian/Alexanderian) Wicca... I could see a Gardnerian reading this and having a litter of kittens. But they wouldn't be likely to complain, what with the whole secrecy thing... ;)

One difference that might be mentioned is the philosophical difference in location of deity. Wicca usually believes that deity is internal (whole or in part), and Druidry usually believes that deity is external. Wiccan ritual is based on bringing out the deity within to enact change upon the world, and Druidry is generally focused on building relationships with the Gods 'out there' -- and will sometimes ask the gods for help enacting change, and will sometimes just be about saying hello. Wiccans don't generally do ritual just to say hello or to give praise or worship to the Gods.

Also, there IS a standard liturgy for Wicca, and it is stricter and more structured than the ADF outline. Gardnerian Wiccans (I think) still use it faithfully. It's the American traditions of Wicca, and the eclectic Wiccans, who have voluntarily abandoned the liturgy in favor of creative, syncretic, or eclectic ritual styles. But it does exist.

Disclaimer: I am not, and have never been traditional Wiccan. I called myself Wiccan until A) I found enough information about Hellenismos to begin practicing what feels like the best fit for me of all the traditions I've seen, and B) I learned enough about British trad Wicca to recoil and say "oh Gods, I've NEVER been that."

If you want to read the Wiccan liturgy, try here: Gardnerian Book of Shadows

I don't know how you could write this to encompass the difference between Brit Trad Wicca and Wicca as it's practiced in America. They're such different animals. It's like the difference between Catholicism and Unitarian Universalists. The Catholics feel that the UUs are a bunch of hippy flakes who have hijacked the term "church" to mean something completely antithetical to what it meant in the good old days. The UUs think the Catholics are a bunch of severe, secretive old fogeys who do things by rote without any feeling and who should just stop complaining about the liberals and join the modern era. If you look at the UUs, you would be tempted to say that "churches have no set liturgy, unlike ADF groves." If you look at the Catholics, you'd be tempted to say "churches are much more dogmatic about liturgy than ADF groves."

I guess I'm saying that Wicca is a mess, and damned near impossible to talk about without pissing a bunch of 'em off. ::sigh::
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Date:March 11th, 2004 07:09 am (UTC)
I'll look at the Cone of Power thing again, see if I can re-phrase it better. I got my limited understanding of it from Starhawk, if that tells you anything :)

As far as the polytheistic groups, I think they might be very, very rare. I've met occasionally really polytheistic individuals, but *lots* of people who state polytheism are actually henotheistic. There isn't much of a difference, really.

Now, if I use Cunningham's definition (a bit altered, of course), then we'd have to say that if a person were polytheistic, they couldn't be Wiccan. I don't know if I can make *that* call. I'd feel really weird about it. But that's what new age movements are all about: any definition or criteria is going to necessarily lack the ability to encompas everything.

*grins* I don't "get" Wicca, either, but I do my best to learn about something before I make a statement (or if I make a statement, test it out on as broad a spectrum as possible).

I hate to see Wiccan bashing on the lists (fortunately, it's rare, and I'm pretty sure that everyone who does it only does it *once*).

Someone asked, "If we have so many Wiccans and ex-Wiccans in ADF, why the hell aren't they writing this article?" I certainly don't think I'm best qualified to do this, but so far as I know, I'm the only one willing.

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